Dynamics Corner

Episode 341: In the Dynamics Corner Chair: Bridging the Gap: Business and Technology in ERP

• Key Partner Solutions • Season 3 • Episode 341

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In this conversation, Brad and Kristoffer speak with  Matt and Terri, Key Partner Solutions, and delve into the changing landscape of Microsoft Dynamics 365 Business Central and the significance of selecting the right partner for implementation. They emphasize the crucial role of a solution architect in ensuring project success and stress the importance of comprehending business requirements for successful ERP implementations. The conversation underscores the criticality of understanding business and technical requirements and the need for thorough discovery processes. Additionally, they discuss the integration capabilities of the Power Platform and express their enthusiasm about recent features in Business Central.
 
Connect with Matt on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/matthewkeyes)
Connect with Terri on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/in/terri-marello-14b94010/)

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Speaker 1:

Welcome everyone to another episode of Dynamics Corner, the podcast where we dive deep into all things Microsoft Dynamics. Whether you're a seasoned expert or just starting your journey into the world of Dynamics 365, this is your place to gain insights, learn new tricks and how to find a key partner for your implementation. I'm your co-host, chris.

Speaker 2:

And this is Brad. This episode is recorded on September 16th 2024. Chris, chris, chris, key partner, it's important. Today we had the opportunity to talk about you know something I learned what is a rescue? Did you know what a rescue was? We also learned about tips and tricks for finding that key partner and things to look out for to have a successful implementation. With us today, we had the opportunity to speak with Terry Murillo and Matt Keys of Key Partner Solutions. Hey, matt, how are you doing? Hi, good, how are you? Very well, very well. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us. I'm super excited, super energized, not only to speak with the two of you, but I just came back from days of knowledge, america, and that was an amazing event yeah, ariel went, I can't.

Speaker 4:

We're going to meet with him. I can't wait to get the download it.

Speaker 2:

It was a smaller conference due to it being the first time I think I think anything for whatever reason, but I that does not take away from the content that was presented, just the sessions and the whole conference. It was short, it was a two-day conference, but it was packed full of information. I learned a lot just from being there in a couple days and I'm looking forward to next year as well. Yeah.

Speaker 4:

I attended the co-pilot meeting this morning and even I wish that I'd like there was a lot of information in 30 minutes on updates they've made to co-pilot. So I'm guessing that you had a lot of that at the session.

Speaker 2:

I stayed away from the co-pilot session. Co-pilot was mentioned in a few of the sessions but I didn't go to any of the co-pilot specific sessions. It was tough because they had a lot of rich content but they. You know it's like any other conference. When you have simultaneous sessions it gets a little difficult to choose which one do I want to go to or which one do I think I will get the most. You know which one will provide the most value to me based upon what I'm looking to do with. You know my journey forward with Business Central and product. It was great that this one was 100% Business Central. So some of the other conferences you have the multiple tracks which, again, every conference is different and every conference has, you know, different audiences. But with it being all Business Central it was a little more intimate because everybody there was focused on it.

Speaker 4:

Nice.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's good. That's what we need. We need more of those.

Speaker 2:

I think so too. I mean, I think some of the stuff crosses over again, but it was important. But anyway, enough of that. I'm sorry. I'm all excited and energized this morning talking about it. Don, all excited and energized this morning talking about it. But before we jump into the conversation, boy that I would geez, I don't even know what I was going to say. See, I'm still so hung up on the conference. Before we jump into the conversation, if you'd let everybody know a little bit about yourself, for those that might not know of you, matt.

Speaker 3:

Sure, I'm Matt Keys. My background is software engineering, software architecture development and so forth. I come originally from a background of C and C++ and I moved into NET when that first came around in around the year 2000 or so. And then I'd worked with ERP systems predominantly JD Edwards and SAP and knew I wanted to continue down that road at a certain point, and so I made the transition over actually to NAV in 2005 when I had the opportunity to work for a partner in an ISV and had a lot of great experience there.

Speaker 3:

And it was funny, coming from a world that's kind of hardcore software development into a world that's more, you know you're straddling the fence of business and business requirements and software, you know, being able to handle the technical end of it, and that kind of had always been my interest was to be more interactive with users and clients and be able to bridge that gap between business and software.

Speaker 3:

So I went from there, you know, being a software architect, to going to get my MBA degree once I, you know, moved into the nav world so I could be more, you know, informed, I can speak more intelligently to users, especially, you know, the last 14 years now and met Terry along the way and she and I have done a lot of projects together, put together some pretty neat products for some partners and so forth along the way, and then ended up forming Key Partner Solutions, realizing that you know, hey, we know a lot of really talented resources and we keep having clients refer to us and coming our way, and so we decided to open our own partner practice. And you know, a few years ago Key Partner Solutions started and we've really kind of really put a lot of effort and energy behind it, and this year it's really starting to bloom. And so here we are today.

Speaker 2:

Excellent Congratulations. It's a great journey. I have several questions for you based upon a lot that you had said, but before we jump into that, Terry, would you mind telling us a little bit about yourself?

Speaker 4:

Sure, I've actually been doing consulting in the dynamics world for about 15 years and, as Matt said, the first company that we were at together, matt and I ended up working on a few projects and created some cool products. I come from the customer side of the industry. Probably about 10 years before that, I had implemented numerous ERP systems for different startup companies, including a custom one using FileMaker. That was interesting. In the biotech industry, I used SAP, used a number of them and then the last client that I was working for, we did a very large, complex project using NuVision 4.0, I think. But I had this crazy idea that we could integrate 30 retail locations and a very busy website real time with NuVision, and we were able to accomplish it by finding a partner that was willing to work with me and kind of follow down this crazy idea, and we ended up winning a pinnacle award for it this year.

Speaker 4:

So that's where I kind of got the bug for being a consultant, because I just wanted to do new projects all the time. That was, you know when the project got done. Do new projects all the time that was, you know when, when the project got done, I got bored. So, um, I decided to just do new projects all the time. So, uh, I've been doing that, like I said, for about 15 years. I've worked for a number of partners small partners, big partners, um, but, as Matt said, you know, the industry is going in a certain direction and Matt and I have done a lot of what we call rescue projects, where we've rescued projects from other bars, and so we decided that we just wanted to create a company that was kind of all A consultants, a people, developers and consultants to work on projects, and it's allowed us to do, I think, some pretty cool projects and be pretty creative and innovative. So, yeah, it's been great.

Speaker 1:

That's wonderful.

Speaker 2:

You have added to my list of things that I want to talk about. Hopefully, my brain can keep them all organized. I tried to write some of the information down, but you both shared a lot of information, but a lot of. There's a lot of changes, I think, happening in the, as you had mentioned, in the business central world or the business central community, with the application, with the application being an online application, with there being waves released twice a year and then monthly updates in between, those features being rolled out. The rate of advancement or enhancement to the application is picked up, which is adding to make sure that it's a super feature-rich application that can solve and be something most business types, if not all business types, can get something out of it. And, one of the things you both had mentioned, you've been working with the application for quite a time, chris. Am I supposed to say a decade and a half or 15 years? Is that okay?

Speaker 1:

You can say almost two decades. Sounds good, almost two decades.

Speaker 2:

Okay, see, so I'm learning now how to reference time, because Chris had told me in an episode or two before that I have to start saying over two decades because I can't just say whatever the number is. He said it doesn't sound.

Speaker 2:

So, since you both have been working with the application for close to two decades and have seen a lot of the changes in the evolution of the application, and how have you been adapting to the application and what do you do to adapt to keep up with those changes, as we call ourselves dinosaurs or oldies, chris, are they dinosaurs or no? Is that the 20-year mark? That's a dinosaur.

Speaker 4:

Close.

Speaker 1:

I think, working on Navision, you know, I think that would. I think that would put you in the dinosaur age.

Speaker 4:

I think if you started in Nav to BC category for sure Done all the different versions.

Speaker 2:

So, how? What are your thoughts on the adaptation or how to stay current? And, matt, you do have some key points that I wanted to jump into. But I first wanted to jump in and get your take with what you see with the product changing with the evolution of the product and how it has changed over the years, how we you know someone that's been working with it for a while could keep up with it.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, I think the. So you know, I'm a big proponent of leveraging the strengths of applications, not trying to reinvent the wheel and so forth, avoiding pigeonholing through customizations. You know those kinds of things. You know, and way back in the NET days, like I said, I remember when web services first came out and it was like a light bulb in my head went off and fast forward to today. Well, actually, even through that, you know, I've worked where we've built some what they used to call service-oriented architectures and you know where you can integrate different applications, like I said, while leveraging their strengths. Like I said, while leveraging their strengths. So you know, fast forward to today.

Speaker 3:

Microsoft has really provided a really powerful tool, with the Power Platform and the Dataverse being a central store of data and being able to put all these applications together. So you can take something like a CRM product, like D365 Sales really, you know, weigh in on its strengths, but still have a very robust accounting system in Business Central, and you know and we've seen. You know weigh in on its strengths, but still have a very robust accounting system in Business Central. And you know and we've seen. You know there's other tools project operations or field service, some other things that you know you can really, you know, be able to plug together. So that's, on the one hand, is kind of keeping up with those technologies, because I'm very excited about that these days, but keeping up with, you know, what's available on the Power Platform through Power Apps and Power BI and Power Pages, now all these new cool features, but also, just on the BC side, really staying abreast through what partners are saying, what users are saying, through channels like Viva Engage used to be Yammer, I guess, but, you know, keeping up with those conversations, looking at what people are saying on LinkedIn, you know, seeing, reading all the release notes, each, you know, each go-round, like you said, twice a year, you know and seeing what's coming down the pipe in the direction that Microsoft is going.

Speaker 3:

And that's, you know, as a partner, that's critical to our success and we really try to stay engaged with the community and, you know, stay abreast of those things. Certainly, and with a background, both as a user you know Terry has a user perspective and a good technical background as well and myself, you know, following suit, seeing these changes and kind of being able to read, you know, how can these best apply for our clients. So we can really, you know, embed ourselves as a software partner. It's hard.

Speaker 3:

It's hard for companies to stay, you know, in step with all these things going on, because they've got 10 million other things going. You know they're having to handle every day, and so it's, but it's exciting work, it's. You know. I'm really excited about the way technology is going, and though we are dinosaurs, yes, I think that kind of background is important, because you know everything from writing, you know performing code in VC, to understanding what are the pitfalls if we go down this route versus that route with the application or with a set of customizations, or you know those kinds of things application or with a set of customizations or you know those kinds of things.

Speaker 2:

You hit on some points with that, and you had mentioned earlier in the conversation about being able to bridge the gap between business and technology.

Speaker 2:

There's always, in my opinion, been a void there. You often have individuals that are extremely talented, that understand technology really, really well, and then you have also those individuals that understand business really, really well, and then you have also those individuals that understand business really well what it takes to run and manage a successful business and sometimes, just like countries have different languages and it may be difficult to speak, I think those two business sectors may not always be able to speak and understand each other because they look at things differently. It's almost like a different vocabulary, a different language to use, and I have always said from my experience that is a critical role to have as somebody who can have a foot in both camps, to be able to take somebody's business knowledge and translate it over to somebody technical, to help them come up with an architecture solution and, vice versa, them come up with an architected solution and vice versa. It's an extremely valuable skill to have to be able to understand both of those and become almost, in essence, I call it a translator.

Speaker 4:

And gosh, you have so much that I wanted to mention on I totally agree with that, brad, because that's where that's kind of you hit the nail on the head of why we started this business.

Speaker 4:

Because the industry as a whole, a lot of the larger companies, are going towards less experienced consultants where they teach them the product. But, as you said and as we all know, that's only half of the success of a project. You really have to have a good understanding of the business requirements and what the business needs and a good understanding of the business requirements and what the business needs. And that's part of the reason why Matt and I have done so many rescue projects over the years and currently is because you have someone implement that doesn't understand that. They don't understand the business requirements and the needs. So the project goes live and the customers are still not able to meet what their daily business requirements are. So you really have to have that combination of the business knowledge and the technical knowledge and keep up with all of the current Microsoft availabilities and changes to know how to use the system in the best way to meet the client's needs business requirements.

Speaker 1:

That is a very common pitfalls you perfectly well put. There's always a translation component that it doesn't get translated really well, and what happens is that you typically don't see some of those issues until later in the project, and it's detrimental at that point. So, and on top of that, you have all these new products and tools that integrates with Business Central that you know. Some of those consultants, some of the consultants don't have any information about Right and so they're kind of stuck where you know Business Central. We need to modify all of this. When in reality, there's AppSource there's now Power Platform, power Automate, business central we need to modify all of this. When in reality, there's app source, there's now power platform, power automate, for example, that can accommodate that. So I think that's a big challenge there, because even to this day, there's still confusion of what those tools can do for a business.

Speaker 4:

Well, and I think there's been an instrumental change because the you know an instrumental change because the you know the industry itself from the consulting perspective. You know those of us that are dinosaurs, so to speak. You know, in Navision. Part of the advantage in Navision was that you could customize the bejesus out of it to do whatever you wanted. And that's what we did Customizations, customizations, customizations and then, as things have gone on and the product has changed, really you have to change the mentality of getting away from some of those complex customizations into using more standard business process in BC, using more ISVs.

Speaker 4:

But really, to me, what our success has been in the last years is adapting to the power platform, and the power platform to me is like the answer to doing really complicated projects in BC and, I'll be very honest, using a combination of the power platforms and BC. I don't see any project that we can't do in BC, that you could do in F&O. It really has changed the game considerably with the benefit of the power platform and the dataverse and putting all the pieces together. So, making that change and looking at the adaptability of now, you've created this puzzle picture of having CE and the Power Platform and BC. All together, you can basically now solve any situation that a company is dealing with with the combination of products.

Speaker 1:

Go ahead, Brad the combination of products that uh go ahead, brad.

Speaker 2:

No, the you you talked about.

Speaker 2:

Excuse, you talk about so much that I want to kind of take this journey, you know, want to go back to being what we call the dinosaur, what, what?

Speaker 2:

Sometimes we get in in cases such as yours and Matt's and many other uh strong, uh users of the application, both from the customer point of view and on the partner point of view.

Speaker 2:

Sometimes that experience and working both as an end user and a customer gives you that business experience to understand some things how they work and how you could work with it in Business Central, even with the new features. And you also talked about how early on in the application everyone used to make a lot of modifications, because, you know, I often found a lot of times people made modifications because they didn't understand the application, because even early on it was feature rich and if somebody didn't understand how a process worked, they would make a modification or a customization because it was just easier or faster, they thought, than learning it. And some of that I attribute to maybe the newness of it being here in the United States I'm talking about primarily from my experience in the US implementations and also there wasn't a lot of information necessarily available. I mean the manuals, the guides and everything that they had. You know, this is almost before the internet wasn't so readily available and with that the BC development and the what's the difference between, like an AL developer and a business central developer right.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 2:

And an AL developer I mean someone who can develop, but a business central developer is someone who understands the application and the implications of the modifications that we're making.

Speaker 4:

And I think a big change that we're still seeing a lot of issues within the industry, a lot of. We see a lot of clients that, whether in the process of going live or go live, and then they hire a developer without having a solution architect or a consultant, and a developer who doesn't know the product as well or doesn't know the process as well will almost always develop customizations and frequently those customizations are number one, not necessary and, number two, don't work in the whole scheme of things in the optimal way that BC is intended to work.

Speaker 1:

So we see a lot of that going on currently in the industry. Yeah, you do need that. You do need that. If a developer can't understand business process, you should have at least a consultant involved within that conversation. You know, I think you had mentioned where we just developed. You know, right away, back in the day, and sometimes you don't have a consultant in between. I think with Power Platform that you mentioned, majority of the things you guys are doing now it's you know how, back in back. Then where you say what can it be done in business? And now we're business central. If not, is there add-on? If there's no add-on, you develop. Right now you have an additional layer in between isv or even from out of the box to development, and that's power automate or power platform in this case. So you know you, can you be done out of business central, out of the box? If not, can can you use Power Automate or can you use ISV and then you do develop. So instead of that three-layer tier, now it's like four layers. Now you have an additional option.

Speaker 4:

Right and I really see that as being. I actually now lovingly refer to it as a company's secret sauce. So to me the Power Platform is where you introduce whatever their secret sauce is. You know, maybe 90% of what a company does is standard business process, but then every company has that little bit that's just a little bit different, that makes them special or successful. And that's what we use the Power Platform for, creating Power Apps that, whether they're collecting information in the field or they have a special process that goes on in their sales.

Speaker 4:

Because the beauty to me of the Power Platform is everybody kind of still wants to segment things like I'm working in CE or I'm working in BC and really that's kind of gone. Now People need to let go of that delineation because the power platform really ties it all together. If you're doing a custom sales process where you have to put in a number of different parameters and end up with an estimate or something else that's unique to your sales process or your production process, that's where the PowerApps come in and you can create that unique picture for the client. And the client it's really from the client perspective, it's all one system, you know. So the information gets entered into CE, it transmits to the Power Platform and to BC. The client doesn't really see the difference or the differentiation. They're just each working in their own roles, creating the specific information that they need for their company, and it's all coming together. You know, usually in the dataverse.

Speaker 2:

And it's all coming together. You know where to go with this. The implementations, I mean. It becomes a matter of architecting a solution, like you said, and this is where it comes back to, like a BC developer versus an AL developer, or having that architect or somebody in there that understands how you can piece all of this together, Because the whole ecosystem is a matter of coming up with the proper solution, not necessarily saying you have to stay within BC. It's a matter of let's use a hammer to bang a nail, not a screwdriver, and vice versa. So let's you know, ultimately you still can do the job, but it's a little more painful if you don't have the right tool or it could be a little more time consuming and costly. So it is important to have that.

Speaker 2:

And with those, I do want to talk about the Power Platform. But some things that you had mentioned. As far as implementations are concerned, and with me, the Business Central application, I think is extremely robust and powerful and we'll talk about that thought in a moment. But you mentioned you deal with a lot of rescues, right, and I think sometimes that you have the rescues. It's a result of an implementation. What is a rescue? What you mean by that, when you call it a rescue.

Speaker 4:

So rescue means that either a project was started with another bar and never came to a successful go live, or they did have a go live I won't say successful, but they had to go live and then post go live. The client is still not able to get the information or the processes that they need. So we actually have three rescues right now and in one of them the client, post-go-live, continued to use QuickBooks for their financial information because they didn't have things set up in BC correctly to be able to use it. So they were partially in BC, partially in QuickBooks and not able to move forward successfully. So yeah, it can be pre-go-live or post-go-live, but always traumatic for the client.

Speaker 4:

They've got that you know bruised situation going on. They've spent a lot of money that didn't get them anywhere. So it's a little bit. You have to, number one, be able to give them confidence again that this is the right solution for them and that you can make it work, you know, and then also they're frustrated. So it is definitely a little bit of a tricky situation of going in determining what went wrong, where they need to go going forward and how you can resolve their problems for them. And frequently the hard part is, if they're live, you can't do everything at once because they're live right. So you're just kind of taking them a piece at a time and trying to clean it up clean up their finances, get the data out of QuickBooks into BC so that they continue in one system, and then work your way down the step ladder of improving the rest of the processes. It's tricky.

Speaker 1:

That's like Lego pieces, right, like when I build something with my son. He does a wonderful job now he's doing really good, but sometimes there's pieces that maybe they weren't there. It still sort of works, but maybe the arm doesn't move, and so for you to do that, unfortunately you have to take some pieces apart, not entirely just to correct those, and that's how I kind of been seeing it, but that is a tricky, tricky situation when you're doing a lot of those rescues yeah yeah, I can see it being delicate because someone's typically under duress and and they may have lack of confidence in the application, which hurts me physically.

Speaker 2:

Every time I hear somebody dissatisfied with business central if there are any um, and also, as you said, they have to build the confidence to come back.

Speaker 2:

And it's not a testament to the application, it just goes with the implementation and it comes down to I think Chris, we talked about this before where Business Central is such a strong application, it can sell itself and it almost comes down to somebody choosing the right partner. Right, they have the application, they know the application can support their business, but the outcome of that is going to be whomever they partner with. When I say whomever they partner with it can, it doesn't necessarily have to be a, you know, a specific partner. It can be any agency or person that understands the application and can work with them through it. You said you mentioned you're working on several discoveries and you've been working primarily on discoveries in the past. What are some of the major pitfalls you see on some of these implementations? So, if somebody is working through a business central implementation, can you provide any insights on things to look out for or ensure that they pay attention to, to help minimize the risk that they will be in the position to need what you call is a rescue.

Speaker 4:

I think one of the hardest, biggest mistakes that people make in the beginning is that they don't want to do, they don't want to pay for an extensive discovery. And frequently when you're working with a company that has a sales team, the sales team might minimize that in order to reduce the project cost, to get the project. And if you don't do an extensive discovery at the beginning of the project, you are very likely going to have problems as you go along because you haven't really discovered all of the needs of the customer, all of the needs of their business. We recently kind of stepped in on one project where another company had done the discovery. They didn't want to pay for the discovery again. So we tried to use the results of the discovery of the previous partner and ended up. It was not a good thing because they probably missed Saying 50% of the details would be kind. But what that ends up happening is that you do a bid based on the information that you have and then you immediately start having out of scope, out of scope, out of scope. So I really feel like if customers recognized that doing a detailed discovery up front actually saves you a lot of money in the end, because you're not redoing things, you're not having nearly as much out of scope added to your project. So that is really one of the biggest things is doing an appropriate end-to-end discovery.

Speaker 4:

And even I think I would say the other thing is and not just trying to benefit myself here but I think the role of the solution architect in a project is really important and I think a lot of companies also don't recognize that.

Speaker 4:

But you have to have a person whatever you want to call that person that sees the full project end to end, that sees the full project end to end, like if you have the sales department comes in and they go okay, this consultant is going to work on manufacturing, this consultant is going to work on sales, this consultant is going to work on finance. You are almost always going to end up in a difficult situation Because somebody who's setting something up on the warehouse side or the manufacturing side is not thinking about how it all rolls up to finance. And you really have to have somebody on the project that sees the end-to-end picture and puts it all together and says no, we can't do this because our requirements in finance are this. So we have to look at manufacturing in the way in which the costing rolls up correctly to finance. So I think those are probably the two biggest things is not having a full discovery and not having a solution architect or an end-to-end consultant.

Speaker 1:

That's one of my favorite topics, terry, is the discovery component. I mean, you know, sometimes you get brought in, it's like just fix this. It's like that's not how it works, I don't know what to fix. You know, you bring in another consultant.

Speaker 2:

I don't know what they told you, so yeah, it's tough, and you mentioned, to have someone to be the end to end. It's more or less someone to oversee the entire project, or not even necessarily oversee it, but that's participating and involved in, so they can see how everything touches. And that's what I often mention. Sometimes, if you make a request or you're looking at something during the implementation process, it may save you three minutes of time here in one department, but with it being a fully integrated system, you may create more work or create more problems for somebody on the other side. So it's important to make sure that they all work well together, one of the challenges. So those are some good tips or good pieces of advice. That discovery is significant and also with it, discovery can sound daunting. It doesn't always have to be daunting. It's important to go through. But sometimes, depending upon familiarity of the application, depending upon the consultants that you have working with you, it can be an easy process. It doesn't necessarily have to be months and months and months in a costly endeavor. It can be depending upon your business, but that's also possible. Now, as you're going through the discovery and you come up and you're working with the implementations. Now, as we go through the guide, just to throw some more questions at you. I told you my mind's on fire today for some reason. I'm trying to keep it all together and keep us down a good journey.

Speaker 2:

You have Power Platform, you have ISVs, as Chris had mentioned, matt and you both had mentioned. You have development and you have a feature-rich base application. How do you determine, or when do you determine, when to customize, not personalize we talked about before. There's a big difference between personalization and customization. When to customize, when to use an ISV, when to change or maybe adapt a business process to an ISV or the business center application or venture over into Power Platform, like if someone were to go through an implementation and they're working with a consultant and they hear some of these choices, just to get a good sense of where the consultant has taken them. What factors drive into which option you take?

Speaker 4:

I think again it goes back to the discovery and if you have a list of requirements by the client, if I'm going to select an ISV, I want that ISV to at least meet 95% of what the customer requirements are, because if it's 95%, and even if we do 5% of development to make it work for the client, that is a much better solution than a complete customization. If the client requirements are unique and you don't think that the ISV is going to meet that 95%, then my next choice honestly would be a Power App or a Power Platform and then from there any additional development that's required. But it's really about what the percentage is how much of the requirements can be met with either an ISV or the Power Platform, or do you go to custom development?

Speaker 1:

So with that approach, terry, do you feel I mean, you know, with key partner solution for you, for the both of you this question is for the both of you do you feel that there's less more development now, considering what Business Central is? You know, with the app source and you know Power Automate, power Platform versus Nav, where you just you know power, automate, power platform versus nav, where you just you know no ISV development right. So is there less development with this modern age of ERP?

Speaker 4:

You want to take that Matt.

Speaker 3:

Sure, I would say. In many cases the end goal is reporting out of a system, correct? So you will have some operational things you know as data in and you know data out and so forth. Microsoft has done a very good job in making Business Central very robust for clients. So, you know, looking at things like Terry mentioned, like the Power Platform I bring up reporting because Power BI is often a good solution.

Speaker 3:

You know you find a lot of clients, especially if they're coming from on-premise. They're so used to just turning to. Well, let's just make a report. And this is a very simple solution. Of course. I mean simple example, of course.

Speaker 3:

But it's that kind of thing that you want to start engaging with your clients, to start to get them to think a little bigger. And so you know you, you know when does custom development step in? It's like if you're having to read, you know, you know in the old days, as they would say, touch the base code but you're trying to bend business central in ways it's not really suited to bend. Or maybe you know an ISV product. You can get 60% of the way there, but you're going to have to put so much work into it to get it across the finish line that you really do want to look at. Well, why don't you then make this as something like a power app or, you know, leverage something, another system that we could integrate and you know that has the strengths you're looking for, rather than trying to kind of arm wrestle everything into Business Central? So that's kind of where I would.

Speaker 3:

You know, it's kind of a two-sided coin there. You want to. You know, I bring up, like I said, the report because I have a lot of clients. You know you'll have a lot of client requests where they're like oh, we just need to report. And my thought you know my thought as well is this a document report, as you? You know that's suited for Business Central. But if you're looking for something to make informed business, you know decisions let's not go make a customization there. Let's go do it out on the Power Platform so that you know it increases visibility to more users, gives you a lot more. You know options if you will.

Speaker 4:

So I think the other thing to consider that's important. We've all worked with ISVs that are easy to make modifications to and they open their code for us to be able to do that. And there are other ISVs that are impossible to do customizations to for something that the client might want or need. So I think that's also an important consideration in picking an ISV. You know we we all pretty much know who those companies are that are easy to work with, but if it's an ISV that requires that they do any development and their wait time for development is three to four weeks- those are things we take into consideration too.

Speaker 2:

Definitely, Excellent, excellent. I still go crazy all over this now. Now, when we talked about a rescue and some of the key factors to look out for to not put someone in that position of looking for a rescue and we talked about the opportunity to use apps and app source, or ISVs I guess are they really all ISVs now if they're an app source and then also to use Power Platform or custom development. You know the world is changing.

Speaker 4:

Tomorrow, Brad, it'll be different tomorrow.

Speaker 2:

So it's well. I'm just thinking now you have, like you have an isv, right then, isv is someone. Before was like an independent software vendor that had some modification to business central and their vision, but now, with the extent you know, that did another function. So now if you have an app source, in essence it's the same thing. So is that an ISV? Like? What do you call? Everybody Like? These names change too much.

Speaker 2:

I think it becomes difficult. So, when you know to avoid the rescues which you work with and I know some individuals have poor implementation, not to sound like they're all disastrous, because I know of many, many, many, many, many more rather successful implementations but if someone's going to choose a partner to make sure that they avoid some of these pitfalls that you had mentioned into having a poor implementation, what are some recommendations that you may have for someone to choosing the right partner and again, the word partner means who they're going to partner with to do it? It doesn't necessarily have to be a Microsoft partner. It could be a consultant, it could be a Microsoft partner, it could be anybody. What are some couple of things that you think that someone should look out for or make sure that they look at?

Speaker 4:

One of the most important things in picking your partner is you have to understand that this is, you know, it's almost like picking a date. Right? This is a group of people that you're going to spend a lot of time with over the next six months to a year. Right, you have to be able to communicate effectively between the team. You have to. You're going to spend a lot of time together.

Speaker 4:

So one of my biggest recommendations is don't buy a product from the salesperson, right? If you only talk to the salesperson before you sign the contract, that is not a good thing. Meet your team, interview your team, commit to having the team that you select on your project. I think that that is really a critical mistake that people make a lot. They buy a project from the salesperson and don't understand that they're going to be spending very little time with that salesperson going forward, and they were going to be spending all of their time with a team that they haven't ever had any communication with. So I think that that's a really critical role in going forward. And then I think the next one is, maybe make sure that there's somebody on your team that understands your business. You know, it doesn't have to be the person who's setting up warehousing. But you have to have a person who they don't need to know all of the detail. They don't need to understand all of the details about your business up front, but they kind of need to understand how to make money.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, how they make money, that's the thing.

Speaker 4:

It's like you are. You know they're not doing these projects for fun. They're doing their these projects to um, you know, improve their business, be able to do more business, um, possibly to um replace. If a company has a lot of people with tribal knowledge, and that's the way that they survive, we all know that companies can only grow so much if everything is based on three people that have tribal knowledge. So you, you have to have somebody that understands those things and can be able to plan your project in order to meet the success of the company, which is why I say it's really important to meet the team.

Speaker 4:

If you have somebody, if you're a manufacturing company and you don't have anybody on your project that understands manufacturing, that should be a big red flag. And also, again, you can't do a project with just a developer. You have to have somebody that has experience in business and understands what your business requirements are. I love developers to death, but that is not their role. You will ask them for something, and I think Matt is exceptional in the fact that he will say no to some people. But you ask a developer to develop something, they're just going to develop it right, not necessarily understanding how that's going to fit into anything else in your project or your requirements. So you have to make sure you have a team and you have to meet that team and you have to be able to have a relationship with that team.

Speaker 2:

That's the difference between a business central developer and AL developer, and I talk about a lot. It's often, and I appreciate those that push back and say well, the application does this. And you know why do you want to do it this way? Because it's not in an essence that, it's not a valid requirement, it's a. Why are you doing it this way? Because it can also validate that it's the best solution for you. I like the way that you put it. It's like dating.

Speaker 2:

So, before you're going to date or get engaged, you need to make sure that you know you're not just looking at the pictures on the dating site. You need to make sure that you actually sit down and meet and get to talk with them, and you did touch upon a key point. I'm going to steal something from Chris just because I feel like stealing it from him. He knows what I'm going to say, but it's important to ensure that you also have ownership in the project. It's not just give it to some people to implement it, and it's also to ensure that somebody has a good understanding of your desired processes or your desired outcome being part of the implementation. You're looking to get something out of it.

Speaker 2:

I always say someone's looking to improve something and that's why they're switching to a new system, so it doesn't necessarily always have to be the same, but you need someone to have those, just like you talked about someone cohesive on the implementation side to make sure they understand how it all goes together. I think, in turn, you need it Because if not, you can have a lot of rogue processes, right, chris?

Speaker 1:

That's right. Rogue processes that's something we talked about.

Speaker 2:

It's your users. Just Google stuff. That's Chris's term. I steal it. I like it. I do too. It is People want to do things outside the system in. Excel. Yeah, that is so hurtful in some cases is because a lot of times users are just trying to do their job and they're going to take the path of least resistance. It's nature to take the path of least resistance well, that's what.

Speaker 2:

So, in essence, yes, and it's I need to survive. Like, how do I survive? It's, it's one of our characteristics, it's one of our needs. I need is to survive, whether it's, you know, I wouldn't take it as far as, like food and water, surviving, but you know, I know I feel I need to succeed in my job. I need to be successful. So in some cases I'll do what I need to do if I don't have a process set up, or if I'm not knowledgeable, or if I don't have someone to go to Right or somewhere to go to ask the questions and learn and you know, and be enriched by the use of the application.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 3:

Yeah.

Speaker 3:

I think, it's oh, go ahead, matt. I was going to say it really is a partnership, like Terry was saying, because you know, I think you know, being a fractional resource for a company that you know keeps abreast of what is the industry doing. You know, like Brad you were saying earlier, like how do you keep up with all these things? It's a full-time job and there's a lot of really, like Terry was saying, a lot of very smart developers out there and I've met a lot of clients that will have, you know, their person, their kind of technical person that they'll say, hey, the sales group needs this and these people are very smart and capable, but they'll go out often and just find, you know what is the nearest fit and kind of you know, put it in rather than relying on somebody who knows who's been in doing this for a while. Um, we've certainly seen. We've seen that, you know, in our practice for sure yeah, no, it's uh, it's good.

Speaker 2:

Uh, yeah, we talked about it at the beginning and you know, in our planning we talked about it as well. But how do you feel about Copilot Matt?

Speaker 3:

You know I like Copilot. I will start with that. I think it's a great tool when you use it to, for example, summarize a conversation. You know, summarize enough of a conversation that it'd be easy, you know. I just need to know what are the bullet points and so forth. It's a great tool for the right applications.

Speaker 3:

I think what we've seen is, you know there's a, you know Microsoft is perhaps a few steps ahead with Copilot compared to where companies are and where their data is, where their applications are kind of catching up to it, if you will. So I think there's, you know there's some out there. You know, right now there's a lot of clients that are just getting into things like automation and you know more powerful tools that are available, but they're not quite at that point. But I think, you know, as Copilot evolves and as we see it being used in new ways, it's, you know, I think it is a good tool for the right application. I think that's really I don't look at it as it's going, at least currently that it's going to completely, you know, revolutionize everything automatically overnight. I think it's got some runway until it gets there and it's got some runway for adaptation for sure. But it is, like I said, a very good tool and a very powerful tool for the right application.

Speaker 1:

No, certainly. I am curious, though is it more important? We were talking about choosing the right partner, and you know all that planning and and you know they have someone that knows industry be part of the team, and so it's both ways without partnership. But do you do you feel as a partner, or when you're looking for a partner, they should have a good understanding of all the different tools. For example, power Platform is another. You know we've been talking about Power Platform here. It becomes more important to have. Is it more important to have someone that understands in your staff how to implement Power Platform or Power Automate, to give that holistic solution rather than just doing business central implementation? Is that more important now to look at partners and say, hey, I know about Power Platform. I may not want to implement it, but I want to make sure my partner understands it. I may not end up needing it, but at least they have somebody that knows about it.

Speaker 4:

I think it's actually really critical, more critical than ever before, because if you want to put all the pieces together in the best way for the client, I actually thinking now like I don't like when a partner says, oh, we work with somebody else that does power platform or you, because you're you're not able to always put the pieces together most successfully.

Speaker 4:

We're we're finding even more, now that we're we're working very closely with with CE, like we're not considering it a CE project and a BC project. We're looking at the whole dynamic, the whole world, and because I think that that is one of the other things that happens is that sometimes people have a CE partner who goes off and does their things on the sales side, doesn't at all think of how it's going to impact BC or the power platform or anything. So I think that all of us definitely a challenge, but we need to continue to grow and expand and look at this whole new microcosm that Microsoft is creating. That is a complete, full, end-to-end picture for the client, and I think those are going to be the people in the industry that are most successful in putting together these projects, putting together all of the pieces to make a successful project. You've got to understand all of it. Now you can't. There's no more tunnel vision. You have to open up and look at the full thing.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, no, you hit it perfectly, terry. I think it's really important to you know back then when you're like you're pointing it's like, oh, that's not our space, you got to talk to your CE partner or your IT. It's becoming more important to have that sort of a single source of communication, finding a good, well-rounded partner that understand the Microsoft stack and allows it to have that easily, someone that can easily understand what you're trying to accomplish and not having to now I've got to find someone else to do this. That's a lot of work at the same time, trying to keep your business, you know, up and running and implementing a solution at the same time.

Speaker 4:

Right, yeah, no, totally it's. I mean it's. You know this is a completely different ballgame than it was even two years ago when we were looking at this. And so, yeah, you have to be willing to open it up and do the work and thankfully, you know, microsoft offers a lot of training and you just you need to, like train, you need to educate yourself every week. Is is basically the deal. There's no, there's no downtime. You're learning constantly. You're learning the features of, you know, the latest version that you're on to see if there are things that can meet the needs of your clients.

Speaker 4:

I'm always trying to learn new things and then I'm like messaging even clients that their projects are completed, you know, to let them know hey, there's this new feature that I think would be good for your business. You know, check it out. It's a very different ballgame. I don't see it anymore. I mean, I personally think that the picture that we had before of where you had team implementers and then you let them go and it goes to support, kind of think that model is changing because, when it goes to support, kind of think that model is changing because it's, I think, they're forever clients, right, because you, you have to maintain that knowledge that you have of their business and constantly be helping them update, use the new features, learn the new features. So I think it's just a really a paradigm shift on both sides of the industry, both for the partners and the clients.

Speaker 2:

It's a partnership and that's what someone needs to remember. It's somebody who's a partner with you to partner with through your implementation. The application is so feature-rich, it can do so much for you and every implementation can be done slightly different, so there isn't one support person that's going to be able to have all of the answers. Some of the things are going to be basic that anyone can answer, but there may be certain business decisions or business questions that you have that someone would really need to understand your business. And it goes back to something I had mentioned before it's choosing the right partner to help you is one of the most important things to do, because then you can avoid from having the situations of the rescue situations or put yourself where you have a lot of technical debt and it's difficult or challenging for you to work with the newer versions or work with some of the other applications.

Speaker 4:

Yeah, totally.

Speaker 2:

You mentioned something else now that and we talked about through the conversation is that there's constant updates, or you yourself, you keep up with the application and oftentimes will reach back out to your customers or those that you partner with. I don't even like the word customers, I like to use the word partners, the partners that you work with with implementing Business Central to share with them. So to ask the two of you, what is your favorite recent feature? It could be something that's coming up within the 2024 wave to October release, or something that happened, you know, within the past two years. Right, we'll just say within the past two years.

Speaker 4:

There's a lot to choose.

Speaker 2:

There's a lot to choose from. You know, listen, it's feature-rich. I get excited on every update, and the list seems to get bigger and bigger and bigger each update. So what is something that you really are excited about that has been released recently or will be released soon? Chris, you're going to have to answer this question at the end so start thinking about it now Okay.

Speaker 4:

I think for me one of the biggest improvements has been the ability of all of the kind of instant communication that they've added, Like. It's so much easier now to do all of like the bank accounts, the bank, to do all of like the bank accounts, the bank reconciliations, the communication with the bank, the auto matching, the I mean that whole communication, electronic communication process and has really, really improved in the last couple of years and I think that it you know ACH transmission, you know bank deposit, like doing your business in a more streamlined fashion has really improved and I think that that has made a big change for the clients. So I think that's maybe one of the biggest things that I see. I think Matt's going to say the other one that I'm thinking of, so I'm going to let him do that.

Speaker 3:

Well, possibly there's a few there the overarching theme I don't mean to sound like a broken record with Dataverse and Power Platform. I think all those integrations are really exciting. Brad, you and I chatted a little bit, I think, on LinkedIn about the new object-oriented features coming to the AL language. I think that Microsoft is continuing to make it more of an object-oriented language to work with so that you can do, when you do do, customizations in AL it's. You have a lot more. It's a lot more. It's a lot more organized, more powerful, easier to design very robust solutions.

Speaker 2:

They changed the names yes.

Speaker 4:

I'm sorry.

Speaker 2:

They changed the names on everything. We went from C++ to C, Sharp or NET. Soon we'll have ALNET Yep exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3:

So, those are exciting, you know, and they really do. They make a lot of. I really like the how easy it is to integrate BC now, to do API integrations and, do you know, connect to other systems and so forth. So, as Microsoft continues to invest in that, I really it's it's an exciting, exciting time to be a part of this. You know this industry, I think.

Speaker 4:

I figured that was the other thing I figured you were going to say, because it, honestly, initially, when Matt and I started working together, that was kind of one of our specialties, since I had done all these crazy integrations. They were all when we integrated what was done retail management systems and a website and everything. You know, they were all custom integrations, everything was 100% custom and Matt and I ended up doing a lot of really complex integrations together, mostly because we both just said sure, I think we can do that. You know, we were. We did one of the initial projects we integrated Magento with VC and which which at that time there were really no, there was. There were not good tools like there are now, and the integrations were much more difficult.

Speaker 4:

So, yeah, absolutely the ease and the ability to integrate and communicate with other systems, whether it's a website or you know, now Shopify I mean, having a built in integration to Shopify is phenomenal shortly and make some improvements there. But but those are the big things communicating between systems with ease, basic, basically, the user doesn't know what's going on in the background. That's, that's the best thing. They don't have to do anything, they don't have to press a button sales orders from Amazon just show up in their system and they process them like normal. So that's huge. Yeah, this works.

Speaker 3:

I was going to circle back to you know earlier in our conversation where we were and I, you know, have had some timely internet issues here. But about customizing, just while we're kind of on you know another thought I had talking about. You know how powerful it is now. On another thought I had talking about how powerful it is now, something to consider when choosing partners is making sure that customizations are accessible to the client, and by that I mean the source code, because we do find a lot of clients that they select a partner and it may or may not be a part of DevOps or GitHub, it may or may not be locked down so we can't download it and look at it and tracking that down especially when you are a rescue project and you're in a critical situation where the house is on fire and you need somebody to help it can be a challenge and that's something very important that I think most clients probably don't know about when they start to interview a partner.

Speaker 1:

That's Brad's favorite thing.

Speaker 2:

Chris, you have to put that on rewind replay, rewind, rewind replay we even talked about the conference. I say it over and over again If you are working on having modifications done to your system. Make sure that you have access to them in some fashion and you can easily have access to them In 2024,. There is no need for you to have I'm not talking ISV applications, by the way, or apps and app source. That's a completely separate topic.

Speaker 2:

I'm only referencing customizations or extensions developed for your implementation, only that someone's doing for you. I don't care if it's a partner, I don't care if it's a subcontractor. Even yourself, make sure you have access to the source code in some sort of code repository and, in most cases, if you're a customer, depending upon his level of sophistication, make sure you manage it. It doesn't take a lot to manage it, but a partner can access it and fork it into their environment and still do the same quality of development, same management of the extension for you. But at least you have it. Because, as you had mentioned, I know of several implementations that they've had some difficulties and challenges because they could not get access to what somebody had done for them. Either it takes time to get it done or to get access back to it, or you can't wait that time and you have to have somebody do it again for you, and that's all hurtful for a business.

Speaker 1:

So that's the number one Bad habits.

Speaker 2:

It's a number one thing that I have, and even if you are someone's upgrading, you sent me down like a whole rant. If you are somebody that's working from the vision or Dynamics Nav, where all the code was embedded within your application, it's no longer that way anymore. That's one of the things to be aware of, so to make sure you have access to your source code.

Speaker 1:

That's a good call out, matt, I think. As a client that's looking for a partner, I think a valid, fair question to ask your partner is do you have a way for us to manage our customization, whether that's GitHub or DevOps or some other tool, and then, whether you want to manage it or you want your partner to manage it, but you should have access to that. Yeah, like Brad said, there's countless times where they don't know where it is and it's like, well, go ask your partner or your current partner and get it from them, Cause it's it's detrimental, for, especially when you get future upgrades right and Business Central, where your app stops working, like what's going on.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's crazy. I'm going to take it a step further and say you know a partner's methodology. You know many clients will say what's in that extension if we can't get it and they won't know, they have no idea. They just know, you know exactly there's no there's no technical documentation on what it was exactly so it is a development issue at its core and source control, but it's also a documentation issue with project management methodology and all that, all those things. So those are all very important.

Speaker 2:

On a partner selection Absolutely, it is extremely important.

Speaker 1:

Chris, ah, okay, my favorite it's going to be around.

Speaker 2:

Don't take mine.

Speaker 1:

I won't take yours. I hope I won't take yours. Mine is more focused in the workflow of the project itself Because, again, as a person that focuses on functional and getting the most out of Business Central, workflow of the project itself. Because, again, as as a person that uh focuses on functional and getting the most out of business central, um is one is you know how often do we get to do uh uat, where one of the biggest failure of projects nobody or for someone forgets to do uat or they didn't have time for it and if you say what I think you're going to say, we're editing it out.

Speaker 1:

I'll give it to you. I'll give that to you, but no, say it.

Speaker 2:

Just go ahead and say it, it's okay, I'll come up with something else.

Speaker 1:

Okay, all right, my favorite. I'll give this to you, brad, no, no say it.

Speaker 1:

Okay, well, page scripting is probably one of my favorites, see, I knew he was going to take it Because it's one of the most important things. And I'll give you another favorite and, brad, you could speak further on that why that's important. Another one is the Business Central's ability to connect with other tools using Power Automate, right? So I think that to me it may sound like it's a standalone, I still believe that they're kind of the same, they're kind of really married with each other's business events, that they're expanding upon that so you can use Power Automate. I think to me that's very, very important because it really allows you to do more with Business Central without necessarily getting into a development phase and sometimes can get costly, where you may just want some simple communication. Right, that you could do that with Power Automate. But, brad, I'll give that to you. Man, tell us why that's important.

Speaker 2:

No, no, no, no no.

Speaker 2:

The in-page scripting tool is my number one. Listen, the application has many features that are my favorites, but the in-page scripting tool, or in-client page scripting tool, is by far my favorite, but that's yours. It's extremely important because it helps you do some sort of unit testing or some testing of your processes or procedures. You can put variability into it because, again, when you give something to somebody to test, you can't guarantee they do it all the way. It's different from automated testing, which is another huge passion of mine. That's more on the coding side. This is more something that you know from the client side that you can do.

Speaker 2:

Coupled with that, I have another two that are close is the analysis views. It's not a development thing, but the analysis views by far were also one of the most exciting features that were added, and they keep adding and continue to do more with the performance on those. The other thing which is coming up in 2024, wave two, that I like is the the ability to schedule the performance analyzer so you can have performance analyzer tasks, so you can schedule it for a particular user, for a process. So no longer do you have to tell someone to do something, you can just turn it on for a particular user for a particular period of time and you can capture all of their analysis. That's what I have, and I could keep going on and on, but I just wanted to get all of those out.

Speaker 4:

I know, now that we're talking about the stuff, little other things are like pinging into my head.

Speaker 2:

I'm like, oh, we could go on for two hours talking about the new feature we could, and you know, Chris and I keep talking about how we're going to talk about that, but we never talk about it.

Speaker 4:

So we just talk about how we're going to talk about it and we can't get there.

Speaker 2:

So, uh, but with that, uh, matt Terry, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with us. Uh, I've learned a lot about implementations, a lot about choosing the proper partner. Uh, I learned about whatever rescue is. I hear the word rescue all the time and I just think of someone throwing me a life vest.

Speaker 2:

I guess that's a little bit different, uh sense of rescue, but if anyone has any questions or would like to learn a little bit more about, uh, you and the services that you offer, what's the best way for them to get in contact with you.

Speaker 4:

Just info at keypartnersolutionscom is the general email box.

Speaker 2:

Yep.

Speaker 3:

Okay, so there's info at yeah, wwwkeypartnersolutionscom. Certainly.

Speaker 2:

Yes, excellent. We'll put some links to those in these show notes as well as links to your LinkedIn profiles, because I'm like a LinkedIn junkie these days, so I enjoy knowledge sharing over there and chatting. It's a great community.

Speaker 1:

It is.

Speaker 2:

It's a great community and it was, you know, emphasized for me over this past weekend too, when I was at the conference, and how great the community is With that. Thank you again.

Speaker 1:

Speaking of conferences, you guys.

Speaker 2:

Oh, I'm sorry, Chris.

Speaker 1:

Anybody will be able to see you in the future conferences. Are you guys going anywhere Future conferences, local user groups or anything like that?

Speaker 4:

We're going to the Summit in Houston December 5th.

Speaker 1:

Oh, okay, yeah, the user group, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So they, if anyone's listening to this, then they can see you there and and talk about choosing the right partner, absolutely houston, december 5th.

Speaker 2:

It's nice. It'll be nice and key keys, key partners with how to choose the key partner.

Speaker 1:

Brad, you talk about key points all the time. Look at their.

Speaker 2:

It's a key partner solution. It's always to make sure you have the key partner.

Speaker 4:

That's right, See. I like that See.

Speaker 2:

Thank you very much.

Speaker 1:

I look forward to talking with you both soon. I appreciate your time. Take care. Thank you very much. I look forward to talking with you both soon.

Speaker 2:

I appreciate your time. Take care. Thank you, chris, for your time for another episode of In the Dynamics Corner Chair, and thank you to our guests for participating.

Speaker 1:

Thank you, Brad, for your time. It is a wonderful episode of Dynamics Corner Chair. I would also like to thank our guests for joining us. Thank you for all of our listeners tuning in as well. You can find Brad at developerlifecom, that is D-V-L-P-R-L-I-F-E dot com, and you can interact with them via Twitter D-V-L-P-R-L-I-F-E. You can also find me at matalinoio and my Twitter handle is matalino16. And you can see those links down below in the show notes. Again, thank you everyone. Thank you and take care.

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